Witch-king's Foresight

[Angmar]

This topic deserves its own thread.

On January 21, 2010, in "Comments on Book Four," page 17, Angmar Wrote:
In Tolkien's essay on Osanwe-kenta, two types of "foresight" are mentioned, one being true prophecy and the other being an internal wisdom that can guess what will happen in the future. Sometimes this internal wisdom manifests itself in dreams and visions, but it is not true prophesy. In modern terms, this would be considered the insight of the subconscious mind affecting the conscious.

"[...] a mind can learn of the future only from another mind which has seen it. But that means only from Eru ultimately, or mediately from some mind that has seen in Eru some part of His purpose (such as the Ainur who are now the Valar in Eä)." - Osanwe-kenta, Enquiry into the Communication of Thought

So, according to Tolkien, or the nameless scribe whose work he "transcribed," the ability to prophesize is given by Eru or one of the Valar.

It would be unlikely that the Gondorians would believe that Eru or the Valar spoke to "lower men," because the Gondorians were, to a certain degree, ethnocentric. Therefore, these "lower men" who could foretell the future were most likely, according to the Gondorians, either frauds at best or summoning the power of Melkor, Sauron, or some other fallen maia at worst.

***

On January 23, 2010, Khazar Replied:

So, according to Tolkien, or the nameless scribe whose work he "transcribed," the ability to prophesize is given by Eru or one of the Valar.

You've raised a question for me.

In "hunt for the ring" it's clear WK thinks Sauron's methods are poor, and does not think this will end well. Then he catches Grima, and recognizes he has other things to do.

Who's feeding him the information? Not Sauron, obviously.

[khazarkhum]

Thank you for giving this its own discussion...I'm honored. :blush:

I can't fathom either Sauron or Melkor permitting WK to see any vision or have any insights which would be indicative of failure for them. Obviously common sense does not count (not permitting your hot 16 year old daughter to go on a date with the entire orc football team, for example) but what is described is far more complicated.

It also undermines the belief that the Nazgul were thralls with no minds or wills of their own. When Sauron is ringless he has far less control over them, and can no longer give them his more bizarre 'phantasies' as Tolkien called them.

Since Sauron cannot be the one giving such clear foresight, and Melkor clearly isn't, that leaves the other Valar. But which one(s)?

[Elfhild]

The Tolkien Companion by Wayne G. Hammond and Christina Scull has letters and commentary by Tolkien which discuss the thoughts and fears of the Witch-king. In these writings, the Witch-king is definitely NOT a mindless thrall, but lives in ever increasing fear of incurring Sauron's wrath.

Since the Witch-king was most likely a Numenorean, he would have the blood of Elros in his veins and come from a line of men gifted with long life and foresight by the Valar. Maybe his Ringwraith status never changed his native powers, and the Valar still spoke to him from time to time.

Varda seems like a too lofty choice to be bothered with mortals - she was always connected more with elves, and besides, the Nazgul can't even stand to hear her name (at least if someone is shouting it in an invocation). Lorien might be a more likely possibility, as he sent dreams of special import.

It's been a while since I read The Silmarillion, so I can't recall right off the top of my head each Vala's forte.

[Elfhild]

I would definitely say that if the Witch-king was granted dreams, visions, premonitions, intuition, etc. from the Valar, it would have come from one of the Feanturi, since they deal with the spirit instead of the elements or celestial bodies. Being the lord of sleep, dreams and visions, Lorien might have spoken to the Witch-king from time to time.

I found some good sites on Lorien:
valarguild.org/varda/Tolkien/encyc/articles/i/Irmo/Irmo.htm
www.glyphweb.com/arda/m/mastersofspirits.html

I thought this was a good quote from the Enclyopedia of Arda: "In Tolkien's earliest work, spirits literally passed over to the Blessed Realm in their dreams, following the Olórë Mallë, or 'Path of Dreams' across the Great Sea. This idea seems to have faded in his later work, though it is never explicitly rejected. So, while Lórien's connection with dreams is certain, it's never made clear exactly what role he played, especially in the later developments of the mythos. It may be that he still summoned sleeping fëar along the Path of Dreams to the gardens that shared his name, or his role may shifted to something more subtle, such as sending the meaningful dreams that certain characters experience in Tolkien's tales."

Since the Nazgul dwelt partially in the spirit realm, they probably would have been more perceptive to messages from Valar, Maiar and other spirits than mere mortals. So this is also a possibility. They probably would have been quite perceptive of the subtle pressence of the Powers, ie, winds from the west, sea breezes, the Valacirca shining more brightly than usual, etc.

One can postulate that perhaps the Valar tried to sway the Nazgul by displays of their power. After so many years forced to do Sauron's bidding, some of the Nine might have felt burnt out and the Valar could have been sympathetic towards them. After all, Nienna cried for Melkor's sake, and Tolkien greatly emphasized the importance of pity. So, while the scribes might not have felt sorry for the Nine, maybe the Valar did?

[khazarkhum]

Feb 1, 2010 5:58:22 GMT Elfhild said:

After so many years forced to do Sauron's bidding, some of the Nine might have felt burnt out and the Valar could have been sympathetic towards them. After all, Nienna cried for Melkor's sake, and Tolkien greatly emphasized the importance of pity. So, while the scribes might not have felt sorry for the Nine, maybe the Valar did?

Burned out is probably the gentlest phrase. By the time Sauron went to Numenor most of them must have felt like they were trapped in a nightmare that never ended. By the end of the Second Age, they almost certainly began to see the world more clearly, well enough to actually hope.

This may have been then the Powers could finally get through, with the Ring no longer running interference.

Naturally this poses many questions. Whichever one(s) chose to reach out, they were not, apparently, rejected out-of-hand. We don't know how often they passively resisted Sauron, for example, though Tolkien does say they were "apt to stray" which may be a nice way of saying "running away whenever they could". Did the Powers encourage this? We know that at least a few of them were upset with Sauron.

I have more ideas to play with later...

[Elfhild]

I would say that the men who were more knowledgeable of the beliefs of the Edain would be more likely to be influenced by the Valar. In other words, the three Numenorean lords, as well as any lesser men who had been strongly influenced by Numenorean ways in life. I doubt that the Valar would have much success in swaying Khamul or any other wraith who had hailed from the South and East, but they could always try.

I would say that the Valar would encourage any form of passive aggression towards Sauron. Perhaps the Powers actually felt sorry for the wraiths; they had suffered long for their decision to follow Sauron and had dwelt as prisoners to their master's will for thousands of years. To punish them further would just be cruel. The Nazgul would be ideal pawns in the hands of the Powers, for the Nine were in positions of high authority in Sauron's ranks and could cause a great deal of damage if they were "careless" from time to time.

Of course, this means that the Valar and Eru were much more merciful to evildoers than many Tolkien scholars/fans give them credit for... and that the wraiths weren't wholly black of heart either, for that matter.

[khazarkhum]

The Valar can be petty, but Eru is not. He tends to be hands-off.

[Elfhild]

For the most part, Eru seems to let the Valar run things as they wish. Perhaps he finds them amusing.

[khazarkhum]

The Valar seem preoccupied with their Elven playthings.