Comments on The Circles

[khazarkhum]

Today I reread some chapters, including 'Conquest of the 9th Ring'.

There is something that makes me wonder. Would any orc really want to rape one of the Nazguls' women? Sooner or later they are going to be freed, and whennthey are they are going to take out their fury on any Orcs--present or not, I would presume.

So I found myself wondering if Sauron really has enough Orcs to go throw a few thousand away like that. I can't imagine the 9 would be all that picky about proper ID before sending the Orcs to Hell. ;D

For Elfhild: Lots of noble parents have had perfectly reprehensible offspring. Jealousy over not being immortal or favored could push a marginal guy over the edge.

[Angmar]

Khazar, quite often men cannot see any further ahead than the present situation. In "Conquest of the Ninth Ring," there was an intense battle in progress. Their primary concern would be to survive, and after that it would be loot, pillage and rape. These soldiers, engaged in a very hot fray, would live only for the present, because they can be dead the next moment.

Sauron had given these orcs and men Angmar's women as a special reward for some feat of distinction. I don't think they would turn it down out of any fear of a possible threat from the Nine down the road. They will enjoy what they receive and be glad for it. They also wouldn't know if the Nine would ever regain favor with Sauron, and out of the two, Sauron is far more powerful. In that situation, they would tend to go with the present and more obvious power.

In later times, the expected reward for a triumphant army was three days of unimpeded, total loot and rape. Sauron is just setting a precedent for the future here. ;D As General W. T. Sherman of Civil War fame said, "War is hell, and there is no refining it."

[khazarkhum]

I tried to post earlier & the net quit on me.

Anyway, the men & orcs are going to be remembered, and I would expect that they would be singled out for at least slaughter. And if there's collateral damage, oh well.

I just don't see the nine letting this go unpunished.

[Angmar]

Khazar, no, the Nine would not let them go unpunished, but determining who had survived the original battle would be difficult. From 2942 to 2951, the Nine were imprisoned at Barad-dûr. (not part of Tolkien's canon) Perhaps it would not be so easy for the Nine to have access to the Barad-dûr military records of those who had fought in the retaking of the valley. Then, too, some of the men and orcs would have in the course of nine years. After they were freed from prison, the Nine repaired and/or rebuilt the fortifications of Minas Morgul. More time would be involved with that. The question comes down to what men and orcs would have survived those years and who could still be found.

[khazarkhum]

On to the next question.

Does Sauron actually kill Angmar?

[Angmar]

Khazar, Sauron does not strip him of his hröa, although in this chapter Sauron brings him as close to death as he can. The maia could do incredible physical damage but force Angmar's spirit to remain in his hröa. Sauron can't do anything permanent like chop off his head, stab him through the heart, etc. without causing his body to die fully. Eowyn did this when she stabbed him in the face. However, I think Sauron could bring Angmar injury and pain that would cause an ordinary man to die, but through supernatural means keep him alive.

Sauron enjoys torturing him too much to kill him, and the Witch-king with a living body is more powerful than the Witch-king as an animated corpse or a bodiless spirit. For Angmar to die totally, his body must be destroyed and Sauron must relinquish his hold on his spirit, either willingly or unwillingly. Even then, it would be very iffy whether his spirit would go to Mandos. The call of Námo is one of invitation, not summons. It can be turned down or accepted, depending on the individual's will. It is obvious that the Witch-king would prefer death to serving Sauron, but whether he would repent and go to Mandos is another matter entirely.

[khazarkhum]

I read it as him actually being killed.

I would think it mighty depressing to discover that death wouldn't equal freedom; and so brutal torture is a better explanation.

I think Mandos & Eru would have to be heaetless bastards to refuse to take them in.

[Angmar]

No, Khazar, he was rendered unconscious and near death, but never the final stroke.

At one time in the mythology, Eru was pretty much a heartless bastard. Men's spirits were bound to the earth, and some even were unlucky enough to find themselves forever slaves to Melkor. I think in this version of the Silmarillion, Turin and Nieniel almost get cast out into "hell," but I believe the Valar beg that they be forgiven and have a better fate.

"Thither came the sons of Men to hear their doom, and thither are they brought by all the multitude of ills that Melko's evil music set within the world. Slaughters and fires, hungers and mishaps, diseases and blows dealt in the dark, cruelty and bitter cold and anguish and their own folly bring them here; and Fui reads their hearts. Some she keeps in Mandos beneath the mountains and some she drives forth beyond the hills and Melko seizes them and bears them to Angamandi, or the Hells of Iron, where they have evil days. [THIS REPRESENTS HELL] Some too, and these are the many, she sends aboard the black ship Mornië, who lieth ever and anon in a dark harbour of the North awaiting those times when the sad pomp winds to the beach down slow rugged paths from Mandos.

"...Then do all aboard as they come South cast look of utter longing and regret to that low place amid the hills where Valinor may just be glimpsed upon the far off plain; and that opening is nigh Taniquetil where is the strand of Eldamar. No more do they ever see of that bright place, but borne away dwell after on the wide plains of Arvalin. There do they wander in the dusk, camping as they may, yet they are not utterly without song, and they can see the stars, and wait in patience till the Great End come. [THIS REPRESENTS PURGATORY]

"Few are they and happy indeed for whom at a season doth Nornorë the herald of the Gods set out. Then ride they with him in chariots or upon good horses down into the vale of Valinor and feast in the halls of Valmar, dwelling in the houses of the Gods until the Great End come. Far away are they from the black mountains of the North or the misty plains of Arvalin, and music and fair light is theirs, and joy." [THIS REPRESENTS HEAVEN]

- Coming of the Valar, The Book of Lost Tales, p. 77

In the Book of Lost Tales, Fui Nienna is Mandos' wife. Her role as a death goddess is later lessened, and she becomes Vairë the weaver, much like the Greek Fates. Nienna is, of course, the Valië of sorrow in the Silmarillion.

[Agan]

Hmm.. interesting discussion.

I feel that once a nazgul's hroa is destroyed he can't be reincarnated. Sauron had SUCH difficulty to restore even his own hroa - without a Ring. It took him a thousand years, maybe more, did it not?
I know there are these passages in LOTR about the nazgul "loosing shape" at the Bruinen, but I think it was only an early conception - later abandoned along with nazgul's ability to shift shape. At least in later writings that we can see in Reader's Companion there is no mention of any of the Nine loosing his shape in the river. They were battered, horseless, weaponless but nothing worse.

As for what happens with a nazgul when his hroa is destroyed, I believe he becomes a mere powerless spirit, still bound to his Ring and thus to Middle-earth, unable to go to Mandos. He will be free when his Ring looses power - thus sometime after the One is destroyed.

You might be wrong, Angmar, saying that Mandos's call is an invitation, not an order. It is certainly true for the Eldar, but for Men it is more imperative, I believe. They can't refuse, unless they are bound to ME by something - unfulfilled oath or a Ring. That is how I remember it, but I have no time to go check...


By the way, I have just read your new chapters. They are both great- about Houris, moskitoes (ohh I am so familiar with those insects!) and wailing Southron and about the Physician's problems... Hmm - has this Houseless Elf taken possession of Goldwyn's body, after all? She acts weirdly. Perhaps the evil spirit wants to get another body - that's why Goldwyn proposes the doctor to lie with her?

[Angmar]

Hmm.. interesting discussion.
I feel that once a nazgul's hroa is destroyed he can't be reincarnated. Sauron had SUCH difficulty to restore even his own hroa - without a Ring. It took him a thousand years, maybe more, did it not?

Agan, since the Nazgul are men and not gods, they couldn't regenerate their own form, as Sauron could. They also wouldn't be reincarnated, for they are men and only elves could be reincarnated (Laws and Customs of the Eldar, Morgoth's Ring). About the only way they could get a body would be to possess a dead one or a living one. Since they would be powerful spirits, I see that they could do that. However, the body would be visible and weak, so a Ring would be needed to make it immortal.

I know there are these passages in LOTR about the nazgul "loosing shape" at the Bruinen, but I think it was only an early conception - later abandoned along with nazgul's ability to shift shape. At least in later writings that we can see in Reader's Companion there is no mention of any of the Nine loosing his shape in the river. They were battered, horseless, weaponless but nothing worse.

That is the way I always considered it. They came out battered but intact.

As for what happens with a nazgul when his hroa is destroyed, I believe he becomes a mere powerless spirit, still bound to his Ring and thus to Middle-earth, unable to go to Mandos. He will be free when his Ring looses power - thus sometime after the One is destroyed.

In the event the hroa is destroyed, I see them as becoming powerful ghosts, like the Dead Men of Dunharrow. Think of it this way - they were not simple peasants. Many of them were kings, lords and sorcerers. The ghost of the peasant would certainly not have such power.

You might be wrong, Angmar, saying that Mandos's call is an invitation, not an order. It is certainly true for the Eldar, but for Men it is more imperative, I believe. They can't refuse, unless they are bound to ME by something - unfulfilled oath or a Ring. That is how I remember it, but I have no time to go check...

I think the Nine would have so much baggage attached to them that they would be bound to Middle-earth. (Much like the men of Dunharrow were bound until they fulfilled their oath, or Gorlim's wraith, who lingered to warn Beren) UNLESS they were given some opportunity to "repent;" here, I cannot do anything except conjecture.

By the way, I have just read your new chapters. They are both great- about Houris, moskitoes (ohh I am so familiar with those insects!) and wailing Southron and about the Physician's problems... Hmm - has this Houseless Elf taken possession of Goldwyn's body, after all? She acts weirdly. Perhaps the evil spirit wants to get another body - that's why Goldwyn proposes the doctor to lie with her?

Agan, glad you liked it. Oh, yes, I know about mosquitoes. The ones in the northeast United States are horrendous, gathering around a victim's face in clouds which make it difficult even to see where you're going.

I couldn't slip anything past you. ;D You knew that it was an elf wight. That is exactly what he is. No, he has not taken possession of her body yet, but she is under attack. That is why she acts so weird. He's one of the hungry homeless. We see him as a very old spirit who had wandered for a very long time - a bitter, vindictive, and twisted spirit with a nasty, sardonic sense of humor. He's an elf, isn't he? ;D