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Post by khazarkhum on Dec 17, 2008 6:39:23 GMT
Here is one of the things that has never, ever made sense to me. Tolkien named rocks, for cryinoutloud, but not Nazgul? There is Khamul, the one certain Nazgul. Most people will add Gothmog to the list despite the best efforts of Peter Jackson. Now it gets touchy. We have 2 "lieutenants" from the 2A, Herumor and Fuinur. Are they Nazgul? Tough call. I believe them to be, as Nazgul are usually considered "lieutenants" and such for Sauron. But they might also be men who have fallen under Sauron's sway, or the sons of Nazgul. I have theories about Angmar, but those must wait.
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Post by Agan on Dec 17, 2008 21:20:50 GMT
We have 2 "lieutenants" from the 2A, Herumor and Fuinur. Are they Nazgul? Tough call. I believe them to be, as Nazgul are usually considered "lieutenants" and such for Sauron. But they might also be men who have fallen under Sauron's sway, or the sons of Nazgul. Here are my 2 cents: I don't recall a single place where H+F are called "lieutenants". Here is all (?) that we know about them: I think these two were not nazgul-in-the-making, i.e. they didn't get Rings at the end of the Second Age because 1. They were two of many, who remained loyal to Sauron after the Downfall. They didn't really need rings to be brought in Sauron's service, against their will. 2. Hardly after the Downfall, Sauron had any Rings undistributed. But there is a definite possibility that Herumor and Fuinur rose to power among the Haradrim, already being (undetected)ringwraiths, much like the Lord of the nazgul became the King of Angmar long after having faded. And yes, I have always counted Gothmog II among the Nine.
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Post by khazarkhum on Dec 19, 2008 8:50:03 GMT
Why name them unless they had some later importance? 'Great lords of the Haradrim' sound precisely like the kind of people Sauron was collecting. Their names mean "Shadow/Black lord" (Herumor: Heru(lord) + Mor (black/dark/shadow). Fuinur means "Shadow" (Fuinwe (shadow).
Those aren't typical Haradric names; they're Quenya & therefore likely to have been given to them later in life, perhaps when they became Nazgul.
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Post by Agan on Dec 21, 2008 18:04:37 GMT
Why name them unless they had some later importance? Unfortunately with Tolkien this argument doesn't work. Lots of characters are named and never heard about again... Yes the names are very nazgullian, aren't they? What is curious, they are in Sindarin ( fuin S., N. [fˈujn] n. night, dead of night, gloom, darkness) The Quenia equivalent would be "huinë". Now Sindarin was not being used by Black Numenoreans at the time - in fact its use was utterly forbidden by Ar-Gimilzor. I guess later King's Men and Black Numenoreans of ME never used it. So - why these two bad guys have Sindarin names? There could be two possible explanations: either both names are simply translations of the real names they used - which would be either in Haradic or in Adunaic, or the Lords had acquired their names much earlier, when Sindarin had still been universally used by Numenoreans - before the times of Ar-Adunakhor. And that makes our guys nazgul. For the guys to acquire Sindarin names, they either had to be Faithful, or get the names before the division of the Numenoreans. So my guess is that H and F had become nazgul in the usual period - mid Second Age, and already as nazgul they later rose in power among the Haradrim.
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Post by khazarkhum on Dec 22, 2008 6:56:10 GMT
Yes the names are very nazgullian, aren't they? I wonder if Sauron renamed them or not? I would think so--they had to be completely divorced from their heritage. Both names are also shown as Quenya at Ardalambion, where Fuinur is shown as also being spelled Fuinar. Exactly! ;D That is the only thing that makes real sense--the names, the timing, everything. I wonder if there are some scraps of manuscript lurking in notebooks that Christopher has yet to release, thinking that people would prefer to read yet another iteration of Elven history.
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Post by Agan on Feb 1, 2009 19:12:53 GMT
Now about "Khamûl".
Nobody knows what language is that. A good guess would be the Black Tongue. If so, please compare the words "nazgûl" and "Khamûl". The first Black Tongue word is no mystery: "nazgûl"= "ringwraith" "nazg"="ring" "ûl"="wraith"
My guess that "ûl" in "Khamûl" also means "wraith", "shadow".
And then it becomes obvious that it was the nickname given to the nazgûl after he had become a wraith, not at his birth.
The "Shadow of the East" that goes after "Khamul" (UT) may be a simple translation of the name. Especially considering that in the East there is a realm called "Khand", which quite probably means "Eastern land".
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Post by Elfhild on Feb 2, 2009 10:11:08 GMT
"Gûl" means wraith in Black Speech. Tolkien just dropped the second "g." I think at one time the name word might have been spelled "Nazghûl."
I always wondered if Khamûl's name was based upon real world languages, not any form of Elvish or Black Speech. There is a name in Arabic, Kamal or Kamaal, which means "perfection." Perhaps Tolkien based Khamûl's name upon this name? Probably not if he knew the meaning, but perhaps he came upon the name in his readings and was inspired by it. There are other names in Arabic and Persian that start with "kh" that could have inspired him as well - Khuram, Khurshid, Khalil. There is also a region in Tibet called Kham, and an ethnic group in Laos and other parts of Asia called the Khammu. The name "Khamûl" certainly sounds exotic and foreign, which was what Tolkien was probably going for.
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Post by khazarkhum on Feb 2, 2009 23:21:26 GMT
I've never been certain of what East he's supposed to be:
Proud warrior with a carefully curled beard & turban, a la the Turks?
Assyrian, violent and warlike?
Mongolian, like Ghengis?
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Post by Agan on Feb 2, 2009 23:21:50 GMT
Gûl means wraith in Black Speech. Tolkien just dropped the second "g". I think at one time the name word might have been spelled "Nazghûl" Do you have the quote for this, Elfhild? I don't doubt your words, I only want to make sure that it was indeed the Professor's own idea that wraith= "gûl", not "ûl"
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Post by Agan on Feb 6, 2009 7:50:04 GMT
"Gûl" means wraith in Black Speech. Tolkien just dropped the second "g." I think at one time the name word might have been spelled "Nazghûl." Elfhild, now I know you were right. I have asked Galin, who is an expert on Tolkien languages and got this reply: JRRT has revealed that the BS word is gûl 'wraith'.
Tolkien seems to variously write (PE17) that the BS word is derived from Sindarin (where the Quenya form is ñúle). In another entry he writes that the word probably derives from Elvish ñgól- (Q. ñóle appears here). And in a third entry he writes again that the BS word probably derives from Sindarin gûl 'black arts, sorcery' (Q. ñúle again). Derived from Elvish in any case, and leaning towards Grey-elven it seems. Sorry for not believing you at once, Elfhild!
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