|
Post by Elfhild on Feb 10, 2009 2:01:44 GMT
I believe this spectral crown visible on Aran Morgul's head in the Spirit World should not be discounted. One way or another he had the right to be King. If you don't want to follow Isilmo theory or Ciryatan-Atanamir theory, my advice is to place him in the line of Malantur, grandson of Tar-Elendil's younger brother Eärendur. You can find the genealogical table presented as a drawing in UT (p.210 in my edition ). This line seems appropriate because the direct descendants of Malantur would be the rightful Kings under the Old law, so recklessly changed by Tar-Aldarion to favor his daughter. Malantur, dispossessed by the New Law was 30 years Aldarion's senior, born in SA 670. By the time of the distribution of the Rings (1700-1800), 6 generations of Numenoreans later, there still would be a great-great-... grandson of Malantur who had the right to be King. However their claim would be all but forgotten and they would only have a standing as distant cousins of the Kings - quite likely to marry a King's granddaughter.
|
|
|
Post by Elfhild on Feb 10, 2009 5:16:25 GMT
|
|
|
Post by Angmar on Feb 10, 2009 6:27:18 GMT
Elfhild, that is a great scan. My scanner wore out years ago and I have never gotten around to getting another one. Thank you for doing this. There is a chart of Numenorean kings at CouncilofElrond.com in Elrond's Library, but it just lists the kings, and does not give very detailed information about the families of the early kings.
As much as I like the Isilmo theory, I just don't think it would be right to go with it, since Khazar has already written a splendid story using this theory.
My original plans called for the Witch-king to be from the extended royal family, but not in direct line for the throne. Malantur seems an excellent choice. His close kin would doubtless would harbor strong grudges. I am sure Sauron would be very sympathetic to a promising prince of the royal blood.
|
|
|
Post by Agan on Feb 10, 2009 14:11:14 GMT
Thank you for posting the picture, Elfhild, and you for opening this thread, Angmar. It is clearly visible that with the death of Tar-Aldarion, the line of Tar-Elendil, Tar-Amandil's first son, had died out without a male issue. Under the good Old Law of Numenor, the next line to rule would have been the descendants of Earendur, Tar-Amandil's second son. Instead of Ancalime, Malantur's son (Malantur himself must have died before Tar-Aldarion) had the right to become King. Strange there was no rebellion... It would be indeed quite possible that these guys of Malantur's line harbored grudges long after the event and maybe were the first to seek new lands in ME. At any given time in the history of Numenor, since the times of Tar-Aldarion, there was always a Man who-should-have-been-the rightful King.
|
|
|
Post by Agan on Feb 11, 2009 9:01:14 GMT
|
|
|
Post by Angmar on Feb 11, 2009 20:50:30 GMT
Agan, Elfhild made this thread, not me. It is clearly visible that with the death of Tar-Aldarion, the line of Tar-Elendil, Tar-Amandil's first son, had died out without a male issue. Yes, Agan, you are absolutely right. The line would have died out. Tolkien wrote nothing about these sons of Malantur. According to The Thain's Book,"Malantur was born in 670 of the Second Age. He was the son of Caliondo whose father Earendur was the brother of Tar-Elendil, the fourth ruler of Numenor. As a male-line descendant of Elros Tar-Minyatur, Malantur was in the line of succession but he never became King. Malantur had male descendants but their names are not recorded." A nice group of distant cousins, who should have been kings. *smiles* The Witch-king has just as much right, if not more, to be king of Gondor and Arnor than Aragorn, as Aragorn traces his line from Silmarien, who, under the old law, had no right to be queen. I guess you could say that there was still a "living" King of Numenor in the Third Age. I think he would have every right to be sore. *grins* This is almost as confusing as Ottoman genealogy. *grins* Since their future was ruined by the new law, about the best opportunity for these princes would be Middle-earth. It is interesting when a line dies out and a distant relative is the rightful heir. A rather strange case in Turkish history occured when Sultan Murad IV, on his deathbed at the age of 27 in 1640, decided it was time to end the Ottoman line. He ordered his brother Ibrahim executed, but his wishes were never carried through. He died too quickly. (I wonder if he was helped along.) In any event, if he had been successful, the royal family of the Crimean Khanate would have been in line for the Turkish sultanate.
|
|
|
Post by Angmar on Feb 11, 2009 20:56:39 GMT
|
|
|
Post by Agan on Feb 12, 2009 13:24:54 GMT
A very good site this tuckborough.net! Thanks, Angmar! Here are some more interesting quotes from Aldarion and Erendis: But elsewhere the new law is formulated differently from this. The fullest and clearest account states in the first place that the "old law," as it was afterwards called, was not in fact a Númenórean "law," but an inherited custom which circumstances had not yet called in question; and according to that custom the Ruler's eldest son inherited the Sceptre. It was understood that if there were no son the nearest male kinsman of male descent from Elros Tar-Minyatur would be the Heir. Thus if Tar-Meneldur had had no son the Heir would not have been Valandil his nephew (son of his sister Silmarien), but Malantur his cousin (grandson of Tar-Elendil's younger brother Eärendur). But by the "new law" the (eldest) daughter of the Ruler inherited the Sceptre, if he had no son (this being, of course, in contradiction to what is said in The Lord of Rings). By the advice of the Council it was added that she was free to refuse. In such a case, according to the "new law," the heir of the Ruler was the nearest male kinsman whether by male or female descent. Thus if Ancalimë had refused the Sceptre Tar-Aldarion's heir would have been Soronto, the son of his sister Ailinel; and if Ancalimë had resigned the Sceptre or died childless Soronto would likewise have been her heir. It was also ordained at the instance of the Council that a female heir must resign, if she remained unwed beyond a certain time; and to these provisions Tar-Aldarion added that the King's Heir should not wed save in the Line of Elros, and that any who did so should cease to be eligible, for the Heirship. It is said that this ordinance arose directly from Aldarion's disastrous marriage to Erendis and his reflections upon it; for she was not of the Line of Elros, and had a lesser life-span, and he believed that therein lay the root of all their troubles. Beyond question these provisions of the "new law" were recorded in such detail because they were to bear closely on the later history of these reigns; but unhappily very little can now be said of it.Tar-Aldarion caused the law of succession in Númenor to be changed. It is said specifically that Tar-Aldarion did this "for reasons of private concern, rather than policy," and out of "his long resolve to defeat Erendis."This change displeased the descendants of Elros, and especially the heir under the old law, Soronto, Aldarion's nephew, son of his elder sister Ailinel.*5
*5- This is not in agreement with the account of the earlier and later laws of succession given on pp. 218-19, according to which Soronto only became Ancalimë's heir (if she died childless) by virtue of the new law, for he was a descendant in the female line.Clearly Tolkien made a mistake with Soronto, as he was never the Heir under the old customs. But I guess the idea that the heirs under the old law (Malantur and sons) were displeased still stands. However, it doesn't look like these guys had much backing in SA 892, when the Law was changed. Interesting name this Malantur had: The name Malantur may be derived from the root malat meaning "gold." The ending ntur means "lord, ruler."Gold-Lord. Was he perhaps greedy and so little loved? Or perhaps the name was given because he had golden hair?
|
|
|
Post by khazarkhum on Feb 13, 2009 9:35:19 GMT
As much as I like the Isilmo theory, I just don't think it would be right to go with it, since Khazar has already written a splendid story using this theory. Thank you! ;D I can't take credit for the theory--I found it online. For a brief while I corresponded with the originator, but I have since lost his email. I wish I could find him; I think he'd like it here. The theory works because it fits the dates well. Sauron wanted the best he could get, and a Numenorean prince passed over for the crown is a good choice. I can easily see Sauron looking through the stud book, as it were, looking for juicy prospects. Who knows how many he approached before collecting them? My guess: Not very many!
|
|
|
Post by khazarkhum on Feb 14, 2009 10:06:08 GMT
Instead of Ancalime, Malantur's son (Malantur himself must have died before Tar-Aldarion) had the right to become King. Strange there was no rebellion... There was probably a lot of jockeying for position to get Ancalime on the throne. Look at what happened when Elizabeth I was dying. That holds true for any kingdom. What gets done about it is very much a factor of the character of the current pretender. How long did it take for Aragorn to show up? And what would it have taken to put him on the throne if Mordor had not been involved? How many Stewards would have selflessly stepped aside? Sure, they say they would...after the fact. Which begs another question: Why didn't any of the Princes of Dol Amroth take the throne? We're wandering afield here, but it does harken back to Numenor if: Numenoreans had a strong cultural aversion to seizing thrones Numenoreans had a strong craving for preserving order. We know #1 isn't true, but #2 could explain many oddities. Telling an ambitious prince that nice Numenoreans don't fight their way to the throne plays right into Sauron's hands.
|
|